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The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic

As I see it, because we have equated volume of person with priority of issue.

I talking about making things equal. The problems in Corner Brook NFLD or Medicine Hat Alberta are no less important to this country than those in Toronto or Montreal.
I understand where you are coming from as there is something inherently wrong with 80% of the people in 20% of the country dictating to 20% of the people in 80% of the country but any proposal i have seen appears to be even more unfair. It is also why the Federal and Provincial governments exist and have their areas of responsibility. Whether those areas are distributed correctly for our time is another question.

On the Senate Ive often though we should just pick people off the voter rolls and appoint them. 6 yr terms pensioned off with one third coming in every 2 yrs. An experiment for sure
 
Allow me to get to the meat of the topic this devolved into. Western anger and alienation. If ANY of you have lived out here and made your living in an industry that our (lol) government has done all but declare outright war on, ie oil and gas, and now going after the farmers too, and don't understand the very real anger, I can't help you. A four year posting to Edmonton, Dundurn, or god help me, Comox, with a rock solid guaranteed income in your pocket doesn't equip you to get it. I understand why all those people think it's just whining, having never lived it. Sucks to be a westerner, I guess. Maybe the best thing is to split the sheets so we can start calling Winnipeg "back east". We really aren't feeling like part of the family out here.
You do know there is oil and gas and farmers outside Alberta right?

I've seen hundreds of acres of very productive fruit belt land turned into townhouses for the GTA, and the remaining farmers struggling to keep their heads above water. Similarly there are about 100,000 manufacturing jobs gone from my hometown of Hamilton, and many tens of thousands more along the corridor. A lot of that is provincial/local, but definitely a federal component there to neglecting the self-sustaining part of national security.

The urban/rural & blue/white collar divide drives down to the micro level, and the feds seems to be the convenient spot in a lot of cases to shift the blame upwards to an even more faceless entity.

Definitely federal failings, but a reasonable amount of blame should land on the provincial side as well.
 
Allow me to get to the meat of the topic this devolved into. Western anger and alienation. If ANY of you have lived out here and made your living in an industry that our (lol) government has done all but declare outright war on, ie oil and gas, and now going after the farmers too, and don't understand the very real anger, I can't help you. A four year posting to Edmonton, Dundurn, or god help me, Comox, with a rock solid guaranteed income in your pocket doesn't equip you to get it. I understand why all those people think it's just whining, having never lived it. Sucks to be a westerner, I guess. Maybe the best thing is to split the sheets so we can start calling Winnipeg "back east". We really aren't feeling like part of the family out here.

Or I could say get your Govt off it's ass and start actually fighting for all these things instead of whining and sniveling to keep you mad and voting as they wish.

Also curious, what makes "your" farmers more important then "our" farmers? You don't think k "ours" have the same issues? Please explain...

And I'd love for your oil to fow here....maybe we could get some jobs also. Or is just "The West" allowed to hurt??
 
Or I could say get your Govt off it's ass and start actually fighting for all these things instead of whining and sniveling to keep you mad and voting as they wish.

Also curious, what makes "your" farmers more important then "our" farmers? You don't think k "ours" have the same issues? Please explain...

And I'd love for your oil to fow here....maybe we could get some jobs also. Or is just "The West" allowed to hurt??
Fuck me. Never mind.
 
You do know there is oil and gas and farmers outside Alberta right?

I've seen hundreds of acres of very productive fruit belt land turned into townhouses for the GTA, and the remaining farmers struggling to keep their heads above water. Similarly there are about 100,000 manufacturing jobs gone from my hometown of Hamilton, and many tens of thousands more along the corridor. A lot of that is provincial/local, but definitely a federal component there to neglecting the self-sustaining part of national security.

The urban/rural & blue/white collar divide drives down to the micro level, and the feds seems to be the convenient spot in a lot of cases to shift the blame upwards to an even more faceless entity.

Definitely federal failings, but a reasonable amount of blame should land on the provincial side as well.
Was in Oshawa not too long ago. Was pretty depressing. Same with the Welland area.
 
(1) So, all notions of equality - you know that principle we've been fighting for for about 1,000 years - are to be tossed on the rubbish heap of history because people don't want to live in Atlantic Canada, is that right?

(2) People in Nunavut should get enormous political power because they live in a vast, frozen wasteland and the 35% of the people who produce 40% of Canada's wealth get about 15% of the political representation ... does that sound fair to you?

I think someone else said it - you're proposing that we make the Senate the model for the House of Commons.

(3) I understand - I was raised in the West - that a lot of people are upset by the notion of representation by population, by the notion of equality. Maybe, while we're at it, we should take the right to vote away from women and indigenous people and those who don't pay property taxes. Yeah, 1264 was a really great year.

(1) I am not an Atlantic Canadian, I am a proud Ontarian who currently resides, and will probably die in Atlantic Canada, please do not equate me with these sea insect eating savages ;)

My attempt is to empower regions and make them all equally politically important. Right now, they are not.

(2) The North is an excellent example. Its an area of massive potential wealth and international importance. And It needs more of a voice in demanding attention.


I think your 35% of the people should get the same power to promote their regions issues as Nunavut, yes. Your "Golden Horseshoe" folks are no more important to Canada than Johnny 2x2 in Resolute Bay.

(3) You're being unusually disingenuous here EC. And you're now suggesting that I think we should take away whack of our civil rights away ? This is highly disappointing from you.


Again, all I am trying to do is give every Canadian region and equal play in our confederation.
 
You do know there is oil and gas and farmers outside Alberta right?

I've seen hundreds of acres of very productive fruit belt land turned into townhouses for the GTA, and the remaining farmers struggling to keep their heads above water. Similarly there are about 100,000 manufacturing jobs gone from my hometown of Hamilton, and many tens of thousands more along the corridor. A lot of that is provincial/local, but definitely a federal component there to neglecting the self-sustaining part of national security.

The urban/rural & blue/white collar divide drives down to the micro level, and the feds seems to be the convenient spot in a lot of cases to shift the blame upwards to an even more faceless entity.

Definitely federal failings, but a reasonable amount of blame should land on the provincial side as well.
Did I say “Alberta” or did I say “Western”? Western anger, not just Albertan.
 
Was in Oshawa not too long ago. Was pretty depressing. Same with the Welland area.

I had family in the auto industry there. Its very sad what's happened that town.

I would love to see Canada create our own brand of E Cars and Trucks.
 
I fear you are right, but it may to be quite as bad as that.

First, a lot of the NDP vote went Liberal in 2015 and it stayed there:

2011: Con - 39.6% NDP - 30.6% Lib - 18.9%​
2015: Con - 31.9% NDP - 19.7% Lib - 39.4%​
2018: Con - 34.3% NDP - 15.9% Lib - 33.1%​
2021: Con - 33.7% NDP - 17.8% Lib - 32.6%​

The Liberals are and were, under Trudeau, below their historic 'normal' levels of 40+% when they win. The Conservatives are just below their 'normal' historic levels and the NDP is back (after Le Bon Jack) at something very near its normal historical level of support.

I agree fully that the blue collar vote has abandoned the NDP, but it is, I think, at least in Ontario, shifting to the Conservatives, even under Poilievre. My guess, based on the UK's and Ontario's recent elections, is that the blue collar voters are inclined to the populist messages that Poilievre is sending. Mr Simpson is right about the pink collar vote in Canada, even if I suspect he was unwise to express his views as he did. The Liberals still, it seems to me, have a firm grip on their female/feminist vote but inflation might be Poilievre's best friend because Canadian women also, traditionally, vote with their pocket books. If the shifting blue collar vote and inflation combine then the next election (2023/24/25) could see this:

Con - 36% (125± seats) / NDP - 17% (50± seats) / Lib - 32% (120± seats) / Others - 25% (40± seats)​

In this situation the Liberals would, likely, still be allowed to form a government with explicit NDP support, but it might force Trudeau to accept a formal coalition with a few NDP ministers in key roles. That might NOT bother the Trudeau wing of the Liberal Party because they are comfortable with a well left of centre policy base. But it will bother the so-called Manley Liberals, the social moderates and fiscal conservatives, who are already restless, I think. That could mean a serious split of the Liberal Party and that is something that might make most Liberals back away.

My guess - maybe just a feeling - is that Chrystia Freeland is, already, 'yesterday's woman.' I think she is too closely tied to the Trudeau faction and I suspect that there isn't enough 'wiggle room' for her sudden "Freeland Doctrine" to make any difference. I think the Manley Liberals abandoned her long ago. I also suspect that IF Pierre Poilievre fails to win a solid minority (one that a Liberal/NDP coalition, no mater how in formal, cannot prevent or overthrow, quickly) then he is done.

Here is what I could see as a left-right spectrum for Canada in the second half of the 2020s:
View attachment 74536

At the risk of sounding all conspiratorial and such I find myself thinking that there are forces in operation that are not captured by conventional politics.

The first issue is the ancient one of money - and who controls it. Since Richard Nixon in 1973 or possibly since Bretton Woods money has been what the US said it was. Stocks, Bonds, Gold, Oil and Wheat all reacted to the US economy. I can't help but wonder if Biden's policies have busted the trust - however you choose to think of that word.

Covid and Ukraine have put paid to a lot of long term trends that the planners were counting on.

Trump, Brexit, Johnson and Truss, and even Corbyn have frightened and angered the planners of Wall Street and the City. They have been terrified (is that too strong a word?) by Canadian Truckers, Kiwis and Aussies rebelling against lockdowns, Dutch Farmers and the Jacksonian Republicans.

I feel - and I know that isn't proof - I feel that in the west there is a fight going on between those forces chucked into the populist categories and the forces of the planners, the City, Wall Street, the State Department and the EU - dare I say the capitalists?

But this is no longer an old fashioned Marxist struggle. The old classes no longer apply. The old parties no longer apply. All governments have elements of all factions within their mix. We can't talk about hard lines separating parties. We can only talk about net tendencies. The rainbow may not be a bad analogy. Kids draw rainbows in primary colours but a real rainbow is the full spectrum, literally. You can find blue in the spectrum but you can't tell where it begins and where it ends. Likewise with red and yellow. Likewise with the secondary colours of orange, green and violet. And all the invisible "colours".

We continue to focus on that which we know, with which we are familiar and ignore the unseen.

One of the "unseens", I think, could be that 18 to 34 demographic. I'm going to call them the Starbucks generation. They do not fit into the standard party matrix. They are looking to be politically engaged. They are looking for someone to stand up and represent them. They have been let down by the existing institutions dominated by boomers who grew up in a world the youngsters don't recognize. No more than we recognize the world of WWI and the Great Depression. They know of it but they don't know it. They don't know the hopes and fears of the boomers. They just know that they have their own hopes and fears. And they aren't the same.

They have chased after Bernie and been disappointed. They have chased after Trump and Johnson and Corbyn and been disappointed. Trudeau and Ardern had their own fan clubs - apparently heavily influenced by boomer factions but tied into the Establishment - the capitalists.

Those youngsters are not blue collar unionists. They are not establishmentarians. They are not particularly libertine or libertarian. They have no institutions they trust in. They trust to their own luck and in large part they trust in their own generation that they have come to know on-line. They share the same hopes and fears regardless of borders.

I think that Poilievre appeals to a large portion of those youngsters. They are aspirational. They are capitalists in the sense that they all know the value of a dollar and a bitcoin and want more of them. They are liberal in the classic sense. Socially you could define them in "laissez-faire" terms. Live and let live. They aspire to a home and a family of their own they just can't figure out how to get there on MacDonald's wages and delivering pizzas and Amazon packages.

Where am I going with this?

Blue collar unionists are a spent force in the private sector. They don't exist.
Public sector unionists are a creature of the Establishment, along with the Civil Service, Academia, the Media and the Parties.
Churches are no more. The Church has split so many times, Unitarian, Trinitarian, Orthodox, Catholic, Roman, Coptic, Protestant, Lutheran, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal, Mormon, Mennonite, Quakers......Deists, Non-Subscribing, Free Thinkers, Agnostics, Agnostics..... Individuals seeking their own way. Protestant countries have become Agnostic countries.
Civic organizations have morphed from Masons, Elks, Rotarians, Lions and Knights of Columbus, through NGOs like Medecins Sans Frontiers to virtual on-line organizations that can accomplish things like this






Summing up - Governments, as always, are at heart of power struggles. Parties, as institutions represented the keys to power. There is an Establishment that has successfully co-opted those institutions to the benefit of the Establishment. That Establishment, as happens from time to time, loses touch with its environment as success breeds complacency and it turns inwards and creates its own bubble. Eventually though, the external environment notices and starts doing its own thing. The Establishment is left playing catch up.

My sense is that this is one of those moments.

Freeland and Biden and Sunak could be representative of the Establishment trying to adjust their familiar institutions to play catch up.

Trudeau is a busted flush. Singh is window dressing.

Poilievre, Trump, DeSantis, Truss, Johnson, Zelensky are disruptors.

This puts them at odds with the entire Liberal Order of Wall Street, The City, the EU, The State Department.
 
Again, all I am trying to do is give every Canadian region and equal play in our confederation.

Then you 'don't get' Confederation.

A tiny bit of background as to why we will never be 'equal' Provinces in Canada:

 
The heart of the problem/grievance is populations in urban centres effectively controlling policy that affects populations elsewhere.

Possible solutions:
1. Redistribute representation.
2. Shorten the reach of voters (limit government power/authority).

(2) has the advantage of not requiring severe imbalances in the worth of one vote.
 
(1) I am not an Atlantic Canadian, I am a proud Ontarian who currently resides, and will probably die in Atlantic Canada, please do not equate me with these sea insect eating savages ;)

My attempt is to empower regions and make them all equally politically important. Right now, they are not.

(2) The North is an excellent example. Its an area of massive potential wealth and international importance. And It needs more of a voice in demanding attention.


I think your 35% of the people should get the same power to promote their regions issues as Nunavut, yes. Your "Golden Horseshoe" folks are no more important to Canada than Johnny 2x2 in Resolute Bay.

(3) You're being unusually disingenuous here EC. And you're now suggesting that I think we should take away whack of our civil rights away ? This is highly disappointing from you.


Again, all I am trying to do is give every Canadian region and equal play in our confederation.
OK ... disingenuous ... hmmm.

I'm looking at the the last 750+ years of social and political history and saying that they matter a whole helluva lot more than Canada';s petty political problems.

-----

Off topic, but ...

I'm not sure that Canada can exist, as a coherent political nation-state for another 50 years, much less another 150. I'm not so sure that we, Canadians - 60±% of us, anyway, are sufficiently politically mature to have a country of our own.

I'm also slightly worried about whether or not the USA has the national will to remain united.
Screenshot 2022-10-30 at 12.44.41.png9RegionsOfNorthAmerica.gif
 
No, you got that right first time around.

Most people in BC aren't angry. It's mainly just the noisiest ones ;)
They've got nothing to be angry about, at least in the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island, they're good little comrades in the Great Struggle. BC isn't the west, it just got drawn on the wrong side of the map.
 
I fear you are right, but it may to be quite as bad as that.

First, a lot of the NDP vote went Liberal in 2015 and it stayed there:

2011: Con - 39.6% NDP - 30.6% Lib - 18.9%​
2015: Con - 31.9% NDP - 19.7% Lib - 39.4%​
2018: Con - 34.3% NDP - 15.9% Lib - 33.1%​
2021: Con - 33.7% NDP - 17.8% Lib - 32.6%​

The Liberals are and were, under Trudeau, below their historic 'normal' levels of 40+% when they win. The Conservatives are just below their 'normal' historic levels and the NDP is back (after Le Bon Jack) at something very near its normal historical level of support.

I agree fully that the blue collar vote has abandoned the NDP, but it is, I think, at least in Ontario, shifting to the Conservatives, even under Poilievre. My guess, based on the UK's and Ontario's recent elections, is that the blue collar voters are inclined to the populist messages that Poilievre is sending. Mr Simpson is right about the pink collar vote in Canada, even if I suspect he was unwise to express his views as he did. The Liberals still, it seems to me, have a firm grip on their female/feminist vote but inflation might be Poilievre's best friend because Canadian women also, traditionally, vote with their pocket books. If the shifting blue collar vote and inflation combine then the next election (2023/24/25) could see this:

Con - 36% (125± seats) / NDP - 17% (50± seats) / Lib - 32% (120± seats) / Others - 25% (40± seats)​

In this situation the Liberals would, likely, still be allowed to form a government with explicit NDP support, but it might force Trudeau to accept a formal coalition with a few NDP ministers in key roles. That might NOT bother the Trudeau wing of the Liberal Party because they are comfortable with a well left of centre policy base. But it will bother the so-called Manley Liberals, the social moderates and fiscal conservatives, who are already restless, I think. That could mean a serious split of the Liberal Party and that is something that might make most Liberals back away.

My guess - maybe just a feeling - is that Chrystia Freeland is, already, 'yesterday's woman.' I think she is too closely tied to the Trudeau faction and I suspect that there isn't enough 'wiggle room' for her sudden "Freeland Doctrine" to make any difference. I think the Manley Liberals abandoned her long ago. I also suspect that IF Pierre Poilievre fails to win a solid minority (one that a Liberal/NDP coalition, no mater how in formal, cannot prevent or overthrow, quickly) then he is done.

Here is what I could see as a left-right spectrum for Canada in the second half of the 2020s:
View attachment 74536

I think with respect to the NDP-Liberal vote it is more that the Liberal vote went NDP in 2011 in protest and has since reverted to its "natural" home
 
The heart of the problem/grievance is populations in urban centres effectively controlling policy that affects populations elsewhere.

Possible solutions:
1. Redistribute representation.
2. Shorten the reach of voters (limit government power/authority).

(2) has the advantage of not requiring severe imbalances in the worth of one vote.
I can't resist quoting Lao Tzu
Screenshot 2022-10-30 at 12.55.48.png
 
They've got nothing to be angry about, at least in the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island, they're good little comrades in the Great Struggle.

And paradoxically, just like any other spoiled brat, we BC folks are statistically the least happy ;)

 
OK ... disingenuous ... hmmm.

I'm looking at the the last 750+ years of social and political history and saying that they matter a whole helluva lot more than Canada';s petty political problems.

-----

Off topic, but ...

I'm not sure that Canada can exist, as a coherent political nation-state for another 50 years, much less another 150. I'm not so sure that we, Canadians - 60±% of us, anyway, are sufficiently politically mature to have a country of our own.

I'm also slightly worried about whether or not the USA has the national will to remain united.
View attachment 74544View attachment 74545
My interpretation was you were being accusatory.

I have stated elsewhere I don't expect Canada to out live my 9 year old daughter.

And the better portion of the blame for that could be laid squarely at the feet of Ont and Que.
 
Does everyone know which level of government has the most influence on your day to day lives?
Municipal

Know which level of government that everyone bitches the most about?
Municipal

Know which level of government that people are less and less willing to get off their ass and vote or put their names up to run for council?
Municipal
 
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