Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[Navy_Pete]

That kind of goes back to what people who are against mandates are talking about... It's not the vaccine that is the problem, it's that governments are forcing people to choose between employment and vaccines that is the issue.

The restriction is just for any cross border worker needs to be vaccinated. That is for both getting into the US and coming back in. Most governments across the planet have severe restrictions on allowing non-vaccinated foreign citizens from entering the country, with very little exceptions, so with 80%+ vaccination rate in the truck drivers, why should the 20% get any kind of special treatment?

They don't even have to choose between their job and a vaccine; they just can't enter the US (b/c of US rules) or renter Canada without quarantining. Still no issue driving within the country.

That limits what they can do with work sure, but plenty of work for driving within Canada.

Best of luck to these bellends though, it's almost -30 in Ottawa today and won't be much warmer tomorrow. Hope they have fun freezing their freedoms off tomorrow for an empty Parliament for likes and shares on their social media echo chambers.

 

[Kilted]

Maye be this is the one from the West.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1486699830147756032

Even in both of those are separate, that's still substantially smaller then what is being promoted.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This may be just an opinion, but it's probably not far from what's happening.

It's not vaccines but anger that's fuelling trucker protest

Agree with the anger fuel, and not the only Sun Media-ite concerned about the cranky few taking away from the concerns of the many.
"STELTER: Trucker convoy has lost its wheels"

 

[Kilted]

Are you sure that is the convoy coming from the West, and not the one coming from Southern Ontario... that would be a bit of a detour on the way to Ottawa from Northern Ontario. There are several convoys starting from different locations that are converging in Ottawa.

Unless they detoured to pass through more populated areas. Based on the numbers I've seen, it looks like some people joined for part of the way and left at some point.

 

[Furniture]

The restriction is just for any cross border worker needs to be vaccinated. That is for both getting into the US and coming back in. Most governments across the planet have severe restrictions on allowing non-vaccinated foreign citizens from entering the country, with very little exceptions, so with 80%+ vaccination rate in the truck drivers, why should the 20% get any kind of special treatment?

They don't even have to choose between their job and a vaccine; they just can't enter the US (b/c of US rules) or renter Canada without quarantining. Still no issue driving within the country.

That limits what they can do with work sure, but plenty of work for driving within Canada.

Best of luck to these bellends though, it's almost -30 in Ottawa today and won't be much warmer tomorrow. Hope they have fun freezing their freedoms off tomorrow for an empty Parliament for likes and shares on their social media echo chambers.

The convoy is about more than just the trucking mandates, lots of people are frustrated with governments at all levels, and are frustrated at being coerced into getting a vaccine to keep a roof over their head.

If you aren't frustrated by that it's cool, I'm not that particularly annoyed by it all either, but the government would be wise to acknowledge the frustration, and look for ways to dissipate it.

 

[Winds]

Rights have limitations otherwise your "Liberal Democracy" can't exist....

And what is the justification for the mandate at this point? There is no tangible difference in transmission rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals since Omicron took over as the primary variant. The unvaccinated truckers can still freely move across the country, potentially spreading the virus between regions. As well, there doesn't seem to be much difference in risk between Canada and the U.S.... it is everywhere at this point.

In a Liberal Democracy, limits on human rights are only justifiable under situations of extreme risk to the state itself, such as during civil war. Is anyone suggesting that this trucker mandate will have any noticeable impact on virus transmission or hospital rates, given that they should still be on the road travelling freely within the country? Or is it just a "no exceptions" policy designed to appease the majority that have become angry at the unvaccinated minority?

 

[dimsum]

And what is the justification for the mandate at this point? There is no tangible difference in transmission rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals since Omicron took over as the primary variant. The unvaccinated truckers can still freely move across the country, potentially spreading the virus between regions. As well, there doesn't seem to be much difference in risk between Canada and the U.S.... it is everywhere at this point.

In a Liberal Democracy, limits on human rights are only justifiable under situations of extreme risk to the state itself, such as during civil war. Is anyone suggesting that this trucker mandate will have any noticeable impact on virus transmission or hospital rates, given that they should still be on the road travelling freely within the country? Or is it just a "no exceptions" policy designed to appease the majority that have become angry at the unvaccinated minority?

How about the severity of cases once caught? If vaccinated people have far lower severity, then that's still lowering potential stress on hospitals.

 

[Winds]

How about the severity of cases once caught? If vaccinated people have far lower severity, then that's still lowering potential stress on hospitals.

Dimsum, is that to say that you believe preventing unvaccinated truckers from cross border travel into the U.S., while allowing them to continue driving freely within the country will meaningfully reduce their risk of catching COVID? If so, is it a significant enough reduction of risk to justify denying them their rights under Sections 6 of The Charter?

It is still the same demographics of people in high risk categories (those over 60, severely overweight, diabetics, etc.) that make up the lion's share of persons in hospital and ICUs. When you look at those that are under 60 without known health conplications, then the risk of severe illness is quite small.

For example, in Ontario, when you look at hospitalizations by age, the vast majority are over 60. Those over 80 have the highest hospitalization rates, by far, despite a roughly 97% vaccination rate.

Ontario COVID-19 Data Tool | Public Health Ontario

Explore confirmed COVID-19 data in Ontario by: case trends over time including hospitalizations and deaths, age and sex, public health unit, outbreaks, laboratory testing and vaccines.

www.publichealthontario.ca

A vaccinated person over 80 is significantly more likely (over 20x more likely) to be hospitalized from COVID than someone that is unvaccinated and under under 40. It is for this reason that Greece's mandatory vaccination policy only applies to those over 60 years old. In comparison, our PM is decrying a serious need for more children under the age of 12 to be vaccinated (they are already about half vaccinated)... this can be compared to Sweden's recent decision that the risks of vaccination outweigh the benfits for young children unless they have certain health conditions.

If the goal is to keep people out of the hospital by preventing them from being exposed to the virus, then why is it just the unvaccinated and not the elderly that are prevented from travel, dining, etc? Are the policies designed to reduce risk of overcrowded hospitals, or to punish those whose decisions regarding their bodily autonomy fall out of line with the governments' stance.

I'm in no way advocating against vaccination, in general, but what is trying to be gained from all of these coercive measures? Do people think that they will convince the vaccine hesitant to trust in the government more?

 

[QV]

Rights have limitations otherwise your "Liberal Democracy" can't exist....

We haven't reached the kind of crisis that should limit individual rights.

 

[Blackadder1916]

See how effective controling narratives can be? We're busy LOLing over the size of this convoy and how it's smaller than boasted mean while important questions raised by Brian Peckford will get less attention than an Instagram picture of food.

​

Let's see what questions are raised by Peckford. A search of the Federal Court site does not yet yield any filed documents (they are usually very quick with getting newly registered filings on their searchable database), however the legal group representing Peckford et al do have the application on their site.

https://www.jccf.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/2022-01-27-Notice-of-Application-Peckford-et-al_-REDACTED.pdf

 

[dimsum]

Dimsum, is that to say that you believe preventing unvaccinated truckers from cross border travel into the U.S., while allowing them to continue driving freely within the country will meaningfully reduce their risk of catching COVID?

If it's anyone who is preventing those truckers from cross-border travel to the US, it's the US govt. They're the ones not letting any unvaccinated non-US citizen cross by land.

Take it up with them.

 

[Winds]

If it's anyone who is preventing those truckers from cross-border travel to the US, it's the US govt. They're the ones not letting any unvaccinated non-US citizen cross by land.

Take it up with them.

That is a good point. However, it is within our government's power to negotiate with the U.S. to extend the travel exemption that had previously been granted to the trucking industry since the start of the pandemic. This is how bi-national relations work.

Furthermore, even with the U.S.'s own policy preventing the 10% of unvaccinated Canadian truckers from entering the U.S., it is the Canadian government's policy that is preventing the roughly 50% of unvaccinated U.S. truckers from bringing essential goods into Canada. Just because the U.S. makes an unfavourable policy doesn't mean that we need to follow suit.

Dimsum, it seems that you avoided answering my question on whether or not you believe the Canadian trucker mandate will amount to any meaningful reduction in hospitalizations, and can be justified. Instead, you said that it is the U.S. mandate that is at issue.

 

[Remius]

That is a good point. However, it is within our government's power to negotiate with the U.S. to extend the travel exemption that had previously been granted to the trucking industry since the start of the pandemic. This is how bi-national relations work.

Furthermore, even with the U.S.'s own policy preventing the 10% of unvaccinated Canadian truckers from entering the U.S., it is the Canadian government's policy that is preventing the roughly 50% of unvaccinated U.S. truckers from bringing essential goods into Canada. Just because the U.S. makes an unfavourable policy doesn't mean that we need to follow suit.

Dimsum, it seems that you avoided answering my question on whether or not you believe the Canadian trucker mandate will amount to any meaningful reduction in hospitalizations, and can be justified. Instead, you said that it is the U.S. mandate that is at issue.

The US likely doesn’t want unvaccinated truckers coming north and may be contracting it here.

What negotiating power does our gvt have right now with an america first policy POTUS? We likely agreed to this to appease them for other things. That’s how bi national négociations work. It’s likely an easy win since the gvt is fine with vaccine mandates at their level.

 

[Winds]

So you ARE saying all of the measures society took alleviated us from "that" type of crisis,......thanks for coming around.

His statement doesn't insinuate that at all. He never said that if no measures were taken that the situation we may have found ourselves in would be one that justified such a curtailment of human rights. Even last spring, a year into the pandemic, the PM did not believe that mandatory vaccination policies should be considered, because they would violate The Charter and cause division within the country... his tune changed just prior to the fall election when he saw it as a wedge issue that could secure him support.

Do you believe that the mandatory vaccination policy for federal public servants, the majority of whom continue to work from home, made a significant reduction in cases? Is the current trucker mandate expected to meaningfully reduce the number of infections amongst truckers, given that they can still drive freely across the country?

Keep in mind that these are basic human rights that people are arguing for. Primacy of such rights are at the heart of Liberalism. They are not the same type of rights as the U.S.'s "right to bear arms".

 

[Winds]

The US likely doesn’t want unvaccinated truckers coming north and may be contracting it here.

What negotiating power does our gvt have right now with an america first policy POTUS? We likely agreed to this to appease them for other things. That’s how bi national négociations work. It’s likely an easy win since the gvt is fine with vaccine mandates at their level.

Do you actually believe that our government only pursued this mandate because of pressure from the U.S. ...what about all of the other workplace mandates that they have imposed on federal employees and federally regulated industries, were those to appease the U.S. too?

 

[dimsum]

Dimsum, it seems that you avoided answering my question on whether or not you believe the Canadian trucker mandate will amount to any meaningful reduction in hospitalizations, and can be justified. Instead, you said that it is the U.S. mandate that is at issue.

The mandate was for any unvaccinated truckers to require a 2-week quarantine period, right? If so, then yes I believe it does.

 

[Winds]

The mandate was for any unvaccinated truckers to require a 2-week quarantine period, right? If so, then yes I believe it does.

But if there is no difference in risk of spread between vaccinated and unvaccinated at this point, then what is the reason for the quarantine? To reduce that individuals risk of hospitalization?

In essence, the quarantine period ensures that unvaccinated truckers will not be offered jobs that include cross border travel.

Likewise, the federal government's ongoing policy of requiring negative PCR tests (opposed to more widely available tests) to re-enter the country (including for those that are vaccinated) has prevented even vaccinated, COVID-negative Canadians from being able to re-enter the country, since PCR tests have become exceedingly difficult to book recently. The only option without a negative PCR test is a $6000 fine, quarantine is not even offered. However, the ability to enter and leave the country is a Charter right.

Canada urged to reverse on-arrival mandatory COVID-19 testing policy for travellers - The Globe and Mail

Business groups say mandatory on-arrival travel testing should end, Tam calls it a ‘drain’ on system

www.google.com

 

[dapaterson]

View attachment 68294

I said the same thing about Big Clothing, showed up for work, and somehow I'm the HR problem.

 

[mariomike]

It's not the vaccine that is the problem, it's that governments are forcing people to choose between employment and vaccines that is the issue.

That was my thought when I saw the "Fck Trudeau" flags.

Even as our former employer was firing unvaxxed employees ( who had already been on unpaid leave for over two months ) by the hundreds, we never saw anything similar to the above directed towards our mayor.

The union would send a rep to hold your hand during the "dismissal for cause", but that was it.

 

[lenaitch]

And what is the justification for the mandate at this point? There is no tangible difference in transmission rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals since Omicron took over as the primary variant. The unvaccinated truckers can still freely move across the country, potentially spreading the virus between regions. As well, there doesn't seem to be much difference in risk between Canada and the U.S.... it is everywhere at this point.

In a Liberal Democracy, limits on human rights are only justifiable under situations of extreme risk to the state itself, such as during civil war. Is anyone suggesting that this trucker mandate will have any noticeable impact on virus transmission or hospital rates, given that they should still be on the road travelling freely within the country? Or is it just a "no exceptions" policy designed to appease the majority that have become angry at the unvaccinated minority?

That's not what our Charter says and, like it or not, it's what we've got. Even in the US - the fount of ultimate freedom to some - rights have limits in many instances that don't threaten the security of the state. Besides, what you or I think is not particularly relevant except perhaps for debating purposes. I'm not aware of any Covid-related restriction, mandate or rule that has yet hit the SCOC or appelate-level court.