Pro/Anti Child Bearing Policies (split from "Canada don’t matter" thread)

[Remius]

The graph that shows countries of origin. It shows that 99% of immigrants were of European descent until the 50s.

I don't know how that's hard to see.

Because the pic you used for that graph is unclear and Looks to be missng data. Maybe give the link and I’ll look at it.

Again though what does it purport to refute any of what I said?

If you want a second opinion, I recommend listening to this, Gad Saad describing the problems of mass migration and failure of assimilation:

And what of what I said is any of that refuting? We are a cultural built on immigration. Nothing new there.

Also you’ve swung to immigration and mass migration and failure of assimilation which failed long ago before this anyways unless you are making all Eurocentric backgrounds one and the same and diverted away from natal policies.

not sure anymore what exactly you are arguing. Without putting words in your mouth, is it your contention that because the country is seeing more immigration from non euro Christian cultures in recent history that that is what is making fertility rates go down in western cultures?

 

[TacticalTea]

Again though what does it purport to refute any of what I said?

I think you're being purposely obtuse here. You made spurious claims (suggesting that immigration to North America has not historically been overwhelmingly European), and I directly addressed those. If any of it remains unclear to you, you're free to scroll back up and re-read. Nothing was particularly complex.

If you think the graph is wrong, take it up with the NYT or do your own research and come back to us.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I absolutely agree with you about incentivizing it. But as you have seen here, some are none too keen on that. Which went to my original point. TTs position that subsidized daycare is “commodifying children” (a ridiculous position), and that it is anti natalist (despite just about every pro natalist policy includes childcare options and programs).

But those are good incentives. But the political will won’t be there for that in the west.

The problem with Hungary, is that Orban has been chipping away at democratic values and institutions and is pushing a much more autocratic rule over that country. The current increase in births is still way overshadowed by the masses leaving Hungary for freedom elsewhere.

The political will isn’t there for a lot of important things.

I don’t care for much of what Hungary is doing (Orban is garbage in my opinion), that being said their child policies are working. Brought the birthrate from the lowest in the EU to one of the highest in the EU. It is also expensive costing approximately 5% of their GDP. A 25% increase in a decade isn’t something to simply ignore, clearly they are doing something right.

Given that so much of the immigration is from the Indo-Pacific, I can say on pretty good standing that Asian parents (by and large) do not say that.

The complementary uncomfortable question is the negative impact that having children has on a career, especially for the woman. Even if the cost of childcare wasn’t a factor (e.g. family can take care of the kid), how many women have to give up their F/T career once they had a child?

Not sure how one could fairly survey this but how many employers would have an unconscious bias against hiring someone with no children vs one with small children, or one with school-age children?

ETA: I would just like to point out that while this is good discussion, this particular thread has shades of “CAF picture of white men talking about women’s issues” - unless I’m mistaken, I haven’t seen a woman comment yet

Recent immigration is largely from Asia. That being said that isn’t the majority or even close to the majority of Canadians currently and certainly not the groups which have had low birth rates for the last 50 years. The group with the best birth rate in Canada is pretty much the Natives, and they look at it very differently than how the European decent families look at it.

A lot more communal in care, they don’t care so much about having different parents (lots of blended families), and they are much more willing to have children younger.

Those factors you list against women are basically the smallest they have ever been in history. It is very easy for them to have a child and go back to work fairly quickly if they choose to do so. Or alternatively they can take over 1-1/2 years and still have a job at the end of it.

Its not a matter of women having to give up their careers, its a matter of many women choosing to give up those jobs when they have decided there is something more important to them. Most aren’t doing that. Having children never slowed down my grandmothers or mom, they went back to work and made their careers what they wanted.

My partner just completed college well pregnant and with a newborn. Having a child has done nothing to slow her down. The career implications are much more overstated than they are in reality.

Its also becoming more common for males to take that role as well, generally the deciding factor on who stays home these days is who makes more.

 

[Remius]

I think you're being purposely obtuse here. You made spurious claims (suggesting that immigration to North America has not historically been overwhelmingly European), and I directly addressed those. If any of it remains unclear to you, you're free to scroll back up and re-read. Nothing was particularly complex.

I am not. Show me the where I said it has not been historically overwhelmingly European? The spurious ones in particular that you seem to have invented to fit an argument that isn’t actually happening. Go back and read exactly what I said. You didn’t address anything. You said “graph”, “graph” and “look at the graph”.

If you think the graph is wrong, take it up with the NYT or do your own research and come back to us.

I asked you for a link because you posted a an incomplete graph. I’d appreciate the source data you are using. Just the link so I can get a complete picture of your argument.

So back to my questions.

what constitutional provisions do we have that discriminates against white people?

And this one

Without putting words in your mouth, is it your contention that because the country is seeing more immigration from non euro Christian cultures in recent history that that is what is making fertility rates go down in western cultures?

 

[Remius]

The political will isn’t there for a lot of important things.

agreed

I don’t care for much of what Hungary is doing (Orban is garbage in my opinion), that being said their child policies are working. Brought the birthrate from the lowest in the EU to one of the highest in the EU. It is also expensive costing approximately 5% of their GDP. A 25% increase in a decade isn’t something to simply ignore, clearly they are doing something right.

But you need to see exactly how and the other factors. They are still losing more people than gaining. Because the extra policies that surround what they are doing is driving people away, it doesn’t help your population growth even if you have a higher birth rate but more people are leaving despite that (and likely bringing their kids with them).

I’m not arguing against the specific policies that are working. As I said it goes to a balance that is required yet likely not quite there yet.

 

[IKnowNothing]

What's wild is that we're at 9 passionate pages spinning off from a blog post from a For Profit Immigration lawyer self-interestedly boosting/plagiarizing a slow news day filler article from a regional CBC branch based on a Master's Thesis built on 2016 and prior census data, with no realistic path to having an impact on policy.

@daftandbarmy in front of his screen:

 

[daftandbarmy]

What's wild is that we're at 9 passionate pages spinning off from a blog post from a For Profit Immigration lawyer self-interestedly boosting/plagiarizing a slow news day filler article from a regional CBC branch based on a Master's Thesis built on 2016 and prior census data, with no realistic path to having an impact on policy.

@daftandbarmy in front of his screen:
View attachment 85175

 

[Jarnhamar]

what constitutional provisions do we have that discriminates against white people?

Technically none.

The government decided that hiring practices aimed at skipping white straight males in order to increase proportionality among literally anyone else was just employment equity - not discrimination.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Technically none.

The government decided that hiring practices aimed at skipping white straight males in order to increase proportionality among literally anyone else was just employment equity - not discrimination.

To be clear, AFAIK, this isn't a feature of hiring in 99% of the jobs in the economy.... just mainly the public service/CAF

 

[Jarnhamar]

To be clear, AFAIK, this isn't a feature of hiring in 99% of the jobs in the economy.... just mainly the public service/CAF

I get a kick out of it not being discrimination since the government says it's not.
A few weeks ago I seen a job offer for an AS4 position with DND. Aboriginal applicants only.

In the spirit of this thread maybe DND can put out job tenders for women who have children as the criteria to get hired.

 

[Remius]

I get a kick out of it not being discrimination since the government says it's not.
A few weeks ago I seen a job offer for an AS4 position with DND. Aboriginal applicants only.

Those job posts are generally not the majority, and some jobs actually are looking for specific targeted groups to meet organizational under representation. Essential qualifications are still required, but yes some will exclude some groups.

An example is my department needs to hire indigenous types for a variety of indigenous initiatives.

The ones I’ve seen more often than the others is indigenous and people with disabilities.

Based on the processes I’ve run, most people in those groups don’t want to self identify so data when they apply is not always provided. None of the processes I’ve run have excluded anyone but we have used and are using an EDI lens for our processes. Which benefits everyone (Like scheduling tests and interviews after normal work hours for example). We’ve also attended network events for people with disabilities who might not be able to attend normal events due to those disabilities.

If there is an AS04 you are looking at that you want to apply for let me know. I can walk you through the process, provide a guide and help you out with the application. As a veteran, you have certain advantages the general public doesn’t have. More so if medically released.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I think, in fine Army.ca tradition, we have gotten off topic…

 

[Remius]

I think, in fine Army.ca tradition, we have gotten off topic…

Yep. lol.

 

[dimsum]

What's wild is that we're at 9 passionate pages spinning off from a blog post from a For Profit Immigration lawyer self-interestedly boosting/plagiarizing a slow news day filler article from a regional CBC branch based on a Master's Thesis built on 2016 and prior census data, with no realistic path to having an impact on policy.

@daftandbarmy in front of his screen:
View attachment 85175

I’m just shocked that, at no point, did this diverge into the ARes or uniforms.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I’m just shocked that, at no point, did this diverge into the ARes or uniforms.

Yet....

 

[dimsum]

Yet....

So about those maternity uniforms…

 

[OldSolduer]

I’m just shocked that, at no point, did this diverge into the ARes or uniforms.

Oh now you've done it.

 

[medicineman]

I’m just shocked that, at no point, did this diverge into the ARes or uniforms.

It's still before midnight where I am...

 

[KevinB]

I think we admittedly came to a sort of consensus that neither political spectrum supports heathy family policies in totality. Despite lip service from all parties (in different ways).

In order to encourage families to have more children there needs to be support for:

Child birth; direct financial support throughout the pregnancy and beyond. Emotional and Mental support as well.

Child care; financial assistance to both parents as well as those businesses engaged in child care to incentivize it as a viable small business (and not a “kiddy farm”)

Medical Support; for expectant mothers, and children from conception to adulthood.
*May not be such an issue in Canada, but a big thing down here.

Parental Leave and Financial Support for that leave period.

Education on contraception, and health, mental, financial issues with young pregnancies.

IMHO if you can’t get behind the above, all the anti-abortion efforts in the world aren’t going to help, and also make one a hypocrite to attempt to call yourself Pro-Life and Pro-Family.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If there is an AS04 you are looking at that you want to apply for let me know. I can walk you through the process, provide a guide and help you out with the application. As a veteran, you have certain advantages the general public doesn’t have. More so if medically released.

That's a really solid offer to make. Dunning-Kruger has me thinking I can tackle an AS05 but either way if I do switch ships I'll reach out, thank you!